Mastering the Art of Tech Buy-In with Thuy Ngo-Shaw at Black Rock Coffee 

(04:38) The tipping point for tech adoption is when personal or group training no longer scales.
(06:34) ROI is not just about the numbers. Quantitative and qualitative returns must be considered when implementing tech.
(08:05) Long-term tech partnerships are built on trust.
(10:20) Selecting the right core team for tech implementation is essential.
(17:50) Engage end users early in the tech adoption process to create buy-in and improve training effectiveness.
(21:23) Measuring success takes time; be patient and set long-term KPIs.
(23:56) Capturing tribal knowledge through a resource library and SOPs ensures long-term success and reduces the risk of knowledge loss.
(29:46) No matter how advanced the technology, it will never replace the importance of people and organizational culture.

• SYNQ3 Restaurant Solutions
• Black Rock Coffee Bar
  

Thuy Ngo-Shaw: [00:00:00] The ROI is very important, but it's not the only thing, and it can't be the only thing, and has to be, again, a true partnership of what are we going to get out of this, and how are we going to get our return on it? What are our KPIs associated with it?

Josh Kurtz: Hi everyone and welcome to another episode of Wise Tales. I'm your host, Josh Kurtz, Client Success Manager at Wisetail, and I'm excited to have Thuy Ngo-Shaw from Black Rock Coffee joining me today. Thuy has spent over 25 years advancing the field of learning and development, building a career dedicated to creating transformative training programs and elevating organizational performance. Throughout her journey, she's led training initiatives for renowned companies like PF Chang's, Piada Group and SYNQ3 Restaurant Solutions, where her leadership in designing scalable learning systems has significantly improved employee retention, operational efficiency and business outcomes. Known for her ability to seamlessly integrate learning strategies with business goals, Thuy has developed the comprehensive training programs that foster leadership growth and enhance team performance. Her career is defined by a passion for driving positive, measurable change across every organization she's worked with. Now as Vice President of Learning and Development at Black Rock Coffee, Thuy is leading the company's efforts to implement web based training for over 1100 employees, setting the stage for future growth and continued success. Her sense of experience and forward thinking approach make her a key player in shaping the future of employee development. Welcome to Wise Tales, Thuy, and thank you for joining us as. How are you doing?

Thuy Ngo-Shaw: I'm doing great. Thank you so much. Gosh, you make me sound so good. Thank you. I think I'm just gonna let you talk the rest of the time.

Josh Kurtz: I'll probably need a break after that, but really, in this conversation today, I wanted to go through the process of choosing the right tech. Obviously, you've been in the hospitality industry for most of your career, in both full time and consulting roles, so I'm sure you've been a part of numerous tech selections. I want to explore that entire journey today, from selecting and implementing new tech but before we even kick off the process, you have to make the decision that you need a new solution. Obviously, we all live with pain points every day. Where do you draw that line and to kick off the process of needing a new tech solution?

Thuy Ngo-Shaw: Yeah. So when you start with a company, when a company just is born, right? A lot of the culture, a lot of the learning and training happens a one on one and then, and those who started it have the richness of what they know and being able to share very organically and word of mouth, and I call it tribal learning, and it's really just picking up again, the knowledge of the job, the culture, how the company was built, and so that at the beginning is necessary. And so there is no technologies that could ever replace that. And then at some point, the success is going to, you know, is going to show and then that means that you're going to grow. And so once you grow, how do you scale that? And that's a lot of times where I make the the decision, can I continue to have a that, the interaction, the relationship, the training and being able to share the knowledge and extend the knowledge to new team members, you know, can I still do that on a one on one basis, or even a, you know, a group setting. And if the answer is no, then we start to have to look at solutions. And a lot of times that is in the technology world. And how do we continue to scale? Then you know what we do and what we do well, and continue to replicate that and be able to hold on to as much of that culture and growth as possible. And so that's when, you know, I start to decide, okay, it's time. It's time to be able to scale what we have done and be able to share that with more team members as we continue to grow.

josh Kurtz: Yeah, and I love that you tie it back into the culture, like, keep that in the forefront of your mind as you're making that decision once, once you make that decision you need a new technical solution. Where do you kick off that process? How many companies are you looking at? What do you start with? A list of kind of expectations, or what you're trying to solve, or how do you get that process started?

Thuy Ngo-Shaw: Yeah. So it starts with, really, you know, we are such a relationship based industry. You know, the hospitality industry is that you know someone somewhere, and really it is leaning on that network. And for me, I've always reached out to those who have done it before, and really learned from colleagues or counterparts in the industry that have done the vetting, have researched a few companies, so that's part of it. The other part is really just doing the research and seeing what's out there, and that, that's the first piece. And then once you start to see what's out there, then you go internal and you meet with your executive team and your leadership team and the ones who built it, and you try to capture what it is that they built. And so then you start to really, kind of have a list of needs, and you start to assess, what can we have? What do we want? And what can we replace technology with? And then what can we enhance the people's side with and have both work very well together. So that's really it. When I'm looking for a technology solution, I'm always cultures, big, people's big. We're in the people industry, and so no amount of technology will ever take the place of the human side. And so finding a technology solution that complements that and is able to have that kind of partnership between, you know, kind of machine and people. So that's my number one priority when I'm looking. 

Josh Kurtz: Imagine you've got some kind of internal goals that you're looking to accomplish with the new technology. But in terms of you brought up kind of pitching it to the rest of the company, is it just pure ROI that you're leaning on when you're pitching that? Or what other factors play a role?

Thuy Ngo-Shaw: No, not at all. So ROI is very important. And you know, because a lot of times the technology solution is going to be a costly commitment and investment for the company, and so we want and whether that return is qualitative or quantitative, there has to be some conversation with leadership and executive when you're talking about what is, what are we trying to get out of, of getting a solution like this? And so when you're talking about quantitative, looking for, you know, can we improve our retention? Can we improve our turnover? Can we improve on our labor hours, our, you know, our all of those quantitative pieces of equal importance ? Can it still uphold the culture, the strength of who we are, and can it still communicate and educate our people as if it were a one to one training relationship? And so it has it, the ROI is very important, but it's not the only thing, and it can't be the only thing, and has to be, again, a true partnership of what are we going to get out of this, and how are we going to get our return on it? What are our KPIs associated with it? And then how do our people feel about it?

Josh Kurtz: Yeah, again, I like that. I love that you keep bringing it back to culture. So when you've got the set number of different tech solutions that you're looking at and kind of comparing them. One thing in my role in customer success, like, especially when I'm onboarding a new client, is they're really nervous about that support piece of it. They're really nervous. Like I was, my hand was held all the way through the sales process, and after I sign it's probably just gonna drop off. Like, how do you scope out that part you had mentioned that you're kind of lean on contacts within the industry. But how do you find that, I guess, cultural fit with the tech partner?

Thuy Ngo-Shaw: Yeah, and especially Josh, in your role, like this is a someone that in your role, and someone like me who's looking at there has to be a relationship there, and there has to be a conversation there. And I'm not highly sensitive. I'm paranoid that you're gonna leave me. And so that is that conversation starts right from the beginning, and that commitment is, you know, I'll take you on a handshake if you tell me and you're not gonna leave me. And even if you did that, you would have someone that is in the wings, that will be able to have that same that really kind of did not disrupt the relationship and the flow and the and, you know, the momentum of building a new solution, and so that is top of mind for me. Always, there's a few things, and maybe I'm jumping ahead, but there's the cost of the solution. The customer or client relationship is very important, because there's nothing worse than to have that relationship and to have a beautiful, great relationship. And we stood this great solution up, and then there's no one on the other side to help us take it to the next level, the evolution of it. All of that is part of the conversation. Standing it up is just the first part of it, and it's not even the most difficult part. Sometimes I believe that, you know, the relationship and the evolution of how it works is, is just as important.

Josh Kurtz: I felt multiple parts of that I've been brought in in the sales process to start building that relationship and then onboarding new customers. Obviously, it's important to build that. Relationship right up front and make sure that you've got a good working relationship and that it's a cultural fit.

Thuy Ngo-Shaw: Absolutely so. 

Josh Kurtz: Moving on. Now that you've chosen the right tech solution, that's really just the start for a large part of the organization, because to this point, it's probably been you and a few leaders that have been going through the process of choosing the tech, but now you're really getting the rest of the organization involved. How do you bring them in, and how do you work with the other teams to implement it?

Thuy Ngo-Shaw: Yeah, and so I'll go back to the selection process of the right solution first, and talking to executives, sometimes it's the easier part, right? And so you because if you're an expert in the field, then they're going to trust that you're going to pick the right solution and go and when you pick the right solution, one of the things that I do want to mention is that a lot of times that when you pick a solution, you pick too big of a solution for what your company is ready for, and that you should always consider that is that you know, What are you internally as an organization, ready for because you can buy all the bells and whistles and pay for it and really only use 10% of it in a year or in a year and a half. And so really being able to pace that out and really negotiate the right pricing for what you need at the moment, and then how the system will grow and evolve with the company. So that's I just wanted to make sure that we talked about that in the selection process, and then next, after we've made the decision, then it's picking the right subject matter experts, because to be able to translate what we do and what a company does from a learning and development perspective, to translate that from, you know, a one dimensional piece of paper to a live interactive web base is a little bit more involved than one might think. And so to be able to set the, you know, set the expectations with the core development team, and every department has a role in that, because eventually, every department will want to be on this new LMS platform and be able to communicate and educate and all of that with the company. And so you pick this, the select few that are going to be your core team, and the subject matter experts that will be able to extract that content from people, onto paper, onto an LMS module, or an interactive module that can that can do exactly what made it magical for you and for your company at the beginning, and being able to scale that as you continue to grow. The scalability of it is a huge conversation, and which is why one would even consider, you know, partnering with an LMS solution.

Josh Kurtz: Yeah, and with that core team that you're talking about that you're going to use to help implement the process, I'm sure to an extent, you're excited about it. You just went through the process. You've built the value and built the business case around it. I'm sure some of the people that you're bringing in on that core team are kind of even rolling their eyes, like, Oh, great. Another type of solution. How is this like, how do you win those people over? Do you have to start from square one and kind of build the business case with them, or is it more, just like, this is the decision that was made, and this is what we need from you. How do you win that team over?

Thuy Ngo-Shaw: I laugh, because it's never you're gonna do it, or else it's never that, because then you'll build it and no one will use it, and if you don't have the buy-in from the very beginning, you're kind of dead in the water. And so that core team that I bring on to to develop the the modules and the courses and the curriculum is to convince them, is to talk to them about what's hard for you, what's difficult for you, and to really kind of have that assessment of, you know, what would you like this system to do for you? You start to build and solve for that, and then once you get that buy-in, then that same mentality and that same approach goes to the broader group. The solution will speak for itself. If you can make my job easier, and if you can make it more streamlined and more efficient and and you can give me the resources that I can access, whether it be with a trainer or on my own, if I just being able to support all of the different learning styles, if I can do that for you and solve for some of your pain points, then that wins itself. Then the platform, the technology wins itself. 

Josh Kurtz: and probably going back to the initial question about, How do you make the decision that you need the new technology? It's probably those pain points that those people you're trying to. 

Thuy Ngo-Shaw: Absolutely, you always have them in mind, because you can't, you're going to need them to be able to then execute and deliver this new platform to the rest.

Josh Kurtz: I mean taking it even another layer down, you've got the management team and everybody bought in. So I mean in terms of the training platform that you're going through right now. How do you get end users bought in? Because some of them could be brand new people to the company that haven't felt those pain points. How do you create engagement for the platform?

Thuy Ngo-Shaw: Yeah, well, then you count on your brothers and sisters in the industry, because a lot of what we're hearing right now is, oh my gosh. This is so amazing. We worked at so and so place, and we did not get this, you know, it was so hard for us to do our job because we didn't really understand what we were doing, and we had to take our test on paper like that. That is a win for us all day long. But, you know, Josh, there were, there, there are. We are going through it right now. So we stood up on the platform fairly quickly, because everyone was so excited about it. And we're right now in the phase of, okay, we learned a lot. And, you know, I spoke earlier about evolution, I think there's some definitely fun conversations where, like, why did we do that? Why did we make it harder for you and not easier? And so we're in it right now. We're tweaking it's the way we set it up, the permissions, how we set up the solutions. You know, the content is there and it's built, but how we did it, and how you navigate through there's 1000 different ways you can do it. And so that's the great thing about technology. It's very agile. If you made a mistake, or if you set it up incorrectly, you could always go back. That's technology. I just I mean, I remember the days when I would print 1000s of books and then be like, Oh, I had a misspell, and you'd have to go back and like, I don't even know if anybody remembers those days, but I do, and so I'm very hypersensitive to that. And so the ability to be able to flex and be resilient, and things that you can't make, you can make a mistake, but the mistakes you make can easily be fixed with a technology solution. It's amazing.

Josh Kurtz: Remembering where you came from is always important, for sure. And then I mean one thing again, what when onboarding clients, you get kind of a different feel for how they're trying to tackle it. Some people want everything perfect at the time they launch. Other people just want to launch. And probably how I try to coach people is just like, Let's get one part of it all on the ground and then rolling. So how do you weigh those options of trying, especially when the team's excited about the solution, and we've implemented tech in my role, where everybody's excited, everybody has their opinion on what they want to do, and everybody's jumping in, and then a couple months in, you're just like, wow, this became a mess. So how do you kind of structure the rollout process, on how you're building out the platform, and kind of take those baby steps along the way.

Thuy Ngo-Shaw: So we went into it like setting expectations is really important. And so we went into it with a phased approach, like setting those expectations and really kind of pulling the reins right from the start is, you know, you go into and everyone's like, Oh my gosh, it's going to do this, and it's going to do that, and it's going to and so I always caution everyone hold it's going to do a lot of great things, but it isn't going to be the silver bullet. Then it's going to fix everything all at once. And so you have to go into it with a phased approach. You have to go into it with, Okay, well, first we're going to gather data. First we're going to, you know, kind of build the content, the way the skeleton, then we're going to build pieces of it, Ayden, and you bring in as even the end user. You bring that in as many people as early as possible, and in a controlled environment so that you're building it to what everyone wants and expects. And then there's some creative freedom to the end user that really gets the buy in from the very beginning, but being able to control that and asking the right questions, having a really detailed phase to outline it, and then with the expectation of there will be some scope creep, and some we want this now and kind of thing, but you really have to your core team of developers, have to be really disciplined. And then there's a communicator. There's someone who says, Okay, here's where we're at. We know you want this, but and then giving the expectation of, when can you expect that? And so just setting clear expectations right from the beginning has helped us.

Josh Kurtz: Yeah, that's really good. And then, I mean, as far as you're rolling it out with your LMS right now. But as far as measuring success, is that something that from the very beginning, you've got benchmarks on maybe how many locations you want using it, how many completions that you want? Or how do you go into measuring success on a rollout of a new platform?

Thuy Ngo-Shaw: So for us, we had a phased approach. So we started with a few pilot users, and then we tweaked and did what we needed to do to continue to improve it. Then we took it and then, but we didn't take it by region, because we didn't want to control it that way. We took it by role of the organization. We brought in our leaders first and let them go through the courses, and then we introduced it to our you know, our baristas and our professionals, I guess you could call it beginners, or our entry level positions that are actually behind the bar, making the drinks. And the core of what we are teaching is for those team members. The other piece of the success that we measured one of our KPIs, is and we made again. We made a lot of mistakes along the way. We thought that we were going to measure 90 day turnover, for example. Well, our 90 day turnover got worse since we rolled this out. That's a reality, and we're still trying to dig into that. But you know something that we need, that when you are deciding on an LMS and the different phases of it, you know, success isn't immediate. This is a long term. And the team, that leadership team, has to understand that. And what I mean is So, for example, we launched it in June, for everyone was on board. Everyone was taking it, taking their courses online. And so, you know, everyone's anxious for the KPI, and they were looking for those KPIs in July and August. We still have people still going through the courses. You know, we're still trying to tweak it, so we're not going to get that kind of success in such a short period of time. We're looking more annualized. We're looking at it year over year. We're looking so we still have some runway in trying to, you know, trying to understand where we want to win and where our KPIs are, and so, you know, one of it is, like I said, saving on, we know we're going to save on labor and training hours. We know we're going to get better with retention, we know we're going to have, you know, more success in the knowledge transfer. We know all of those things. We just, you know as an organization that when you're doing it, just has to understand the patience that it's going to take and the time it's going to take to be able to really see true success when it comes to those KPIs.

Josh Kurtz: If something like you said, if a number goes the the other direction, it's not going to happen overnight. 

Thuy Ngo-Shaw: And again, the key to that is being able to communicate it to your leadership, your executive team, and so that you know, because you're already into next year, and you're still trying to measure what you're doing right now, and they want the results now. And so just being able to communicate that and understand that, it takes time for those APIs to come forward.

Josh Kurtz: So when kind of zooming out now, when you're looking at the entire process as a whole, what are some best practices that you've learned through all of your tech implementation, some some best practices and maybe some landlines on some text rollouts that didn't work.

Thuy Ngo-Shaw: So the landmines, so some of the things, setting expectations is key. Setting expectations, picking the right team you know, to develop and to build the system out, is key. And really kind of understanding that you're going to misstep, and so as long as everyone understands that, you know, we're going to try, you know, try and fail and try again. That is a lot of what this is all about. We've made the commitment to the technology solution. So once we're there, you just have to build the right team. You have to set expectations, bring as many people along the process as possible, so that there's less time going back and explaining it and justifying pieces, because that takes time away from the development and the build of the platform and so and so. Bring in that, bringing as many people along, asking for feedback as much as possible. Yeah, then the watch outs are asking too many people. I know I'm talking out of both sides here, but this is, you know, you pick your key core people. You decide who those people are going to be, and you give them a sense of ownership to it. You give them a sense of participation in it. But then also, just be careful with the amount of people you have involved in that initial build because, because then it did a lot of things like, kind of cooks in the kitchen, they will slow down the process. And so be very mindful of who that core group is. And so that's what would be my watch out is just not to ask, you know, you know what you need? You know that you remember you did the needs analysis before, what you need, what you want to build, and so you're directionally correct. So don't you know the watch out would be, you know, Scope Creep is a big deal, and so try not to get too big in front of your skis and when you're building it out. And understanding the phased approach of this is where we're going to start. This. Just the next phase of it, building out a really kind of thoughtful timeline, and then sticking to that. And then know that you could always go back and tweak and fix and whatever it is that you need to do. So you're not going to build a perfect, you know, that's the other watch. I don't think that it's going to be perfect, because it's not. And then give us some time to sink in and give it some time for the team to understand the system. You're going to learn a lot, and then, and then at some point down the road, you'll be able to say, Okay, this is where we were, and this is where we are from a development perspective, that's a win. This is where we were, and this is where we are from a KPI perspective, that will be a win. And so just really, really set those milestones and try to meet those and then that way it will be uplifting and not so overwhelming.

Josh Kurtz: Yeah, and my next question is probably going to go more towards just the ongoing use of tech, but something that I see a lot of organizations, and even organizations that I've worked in struggles with. If one person leaves that has a lot of that tribal knowledge with that solution, you lose a lot in those instances. So is there, like any SOPs, or any processes that you've had around documentation to to help that, again, maybe not even just in the rollout process, although I'm sure that could have a roadblock as well, but just kind of the ongoing maintenance of the tech solution.

Thuy Ngo-Shaw: Yeah. And so we again took it in a phased approach. So the very first priority was to get the core team members trained. That was that it was a recommended, like, just a curriculum that was built on the days of training, the hours of training. So we were able to capture a lot of that, and then in the and then also, there were a lot of resources. And so just going on there and training was one piece of it. The other was we built a resource library at the same time on a parallel path so that we could grab as many now, because we were afraid of, like losing, losing the knowledge of it. More about, more about the need of being able to capture everything. And we weren't just capturing buildings and then moving on to the next. There were a lot of parallel paths when you're talking about capturing the data, the information, the content, all of that. And so we built a resource library, an SOP, and then we met with all of the department heads, and then we pulled into putting it on the platform. So then we got everyone engaged and committed to putting their content on our LMS. And so that was marketing, operations, finance. So everyone had their own kind of very siloed places where they kept their information. So the very one of the very first things we did was we just gathered all of the data, all of the information, all of the content, and then we knew we were going to get to it eventually, but we were able to exactly to your point. We wanted to be able to capture it first and then kind of lay it all out, because now we have all of the content in addition to the people that support it. So in the event, I mean, you're not going to lose all of your experience and your tenured employees, but then as we built the content, we also had the supporting materials, the resources to be able to align with that. And so that's how we did it, in a really kind of parallel path of capturing the information.

Josh Kurtz: Okay, so we end every episode with a little bit more of a personal question, and that is, if you could create your own custom bumper sticker, what would it say and why?

Thuy Ngo-Shaw: If I could create my own bumper sticker, what would it say and why? I would, you know what? Honestly, Josh, this is quite boring, but I'd say culture is key. People are key because technology can't take that over no matter how good it is. 

Josh Kurtz: I love that you just tied the entire conversation back up with the bumper sticker. That's perfect. 

Thuy Ngo-Shaw: People are important for sure.

Josh Kurtz: Thank you for joining us, Thuy. Thank you so much. And if there's anything else that we can do for you, let us know.

Thuy Ngo-Shaw: Oh my goodness, thank you so much. It's been fun.

josh Kurtz: Thanks for joining us for another episode of wise tales. Help us tell these tales by leaving a five star review and be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode.